hyuumanatees ([info]hyuumanatees) wrote,
@ 2008-03-07 21:27:00
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Current location:dorm
Current mood: pleased
Current music:"Soak Up the Sun" Sheryl Crow
Entry tags:class, feminism, fred, i *heart* having so many smart friends, insecurity, masculinity, powerlessness, savage love, sometimes i think i'm deliberately contr, struggle

Oh noes! Politicals!
So words can not even begin to describe how happy I am to hear from people about the different stuff I've posted this week.  It's definitely more interesting than what's been going on in my life.  I particularly loved that, after spending the afternoon thinking that I should go back and clarify a lot of the stuff I posted earlier, particularly that I didn't put up the "women abandoning women" article because I think all women should vote for Hillary (definitely not) but because I was really surprised to see the concept named and addressed in that way, I am greeted by a lively and outspoken post that said many of the same things.  Whoo intellectually stimulating friends... dare I say it?... for the win (oh no, I'm a product on the internet!). 

One of my textbooks for my Social Movements class is "The World Split Open" by Rosen and while it's VERY encouraging and positive as a whole, it does devote a chapter to the in-fighting and struggles that many of the top women leaders faced.  Gloria Steinem was bashed for being too "mainstream," too glamorous, too conventionally attractive in terms of dress and make-up, and too much of a media darling.  Leader after leader quickly gained prominence because of a certain article or book they wrote but then were just as quickly abandoned, discredited, and criticized for wholly unrelated reasons as soon as they made a single statement that their fan club disagreed with.  Lesbians were told they were hurting the movement by being too extreme and out there.  Betty Friedan of all people, to whom so many women owe so much, was the one who coined the term lavender menace.  Many women bashed their more "out there" compatriots for driving away support and sympathy for the cause as a whole through their adoption of radical stances.  Women who despaired of the possibility that marriage could ever be an egalitarian institution were blasted for making all feminists seem like man-hating home wreckers who thought all women should abandon their spouses and children.

And as a good student, I know I'm supposed to ask "WHY?" but I just don't have a good answer.  I refuse to believe that women naturally destroy other women.  I could make a lot of convincing arguments over how ANYONE who's part of a group that's not empowered, disenfranchised, looked down upon, disrespected, etc, will have some members who are obsessive over destroying anyone they can whom they see as having too much, anyone who's too successful, or causes too much envy/jealousy/controversy.  In this, as in many other things, I think women are serving as the canary in the mine but nearly everyone else wants to dismiss it as a girl problem and yes, that's a reference to the studies done that when schools and companies go out of their way to make things family-friendly and female-compatible (or whatever the term's called), suddenly the men start doing much better, too.  IMSA's style of teaching and its experiments with temporary girls-only classrooms came up as well so that's yet another thing I'm absolutely itching to hear [info]yuri93's thoughts on. 

The idea reminds me a lot of a research study I found for my presentation on homosexuality, where men who were told they were viewed as having some effeminate traits were incredibly negative and hostile toward images of homosexual men.  Men who were told they were seen as having masculine traits tended to be much more mild, moderate, welcoming, and opening.  I.E. their male egos could handle tolerance as their own masculinity wasn't being threatened.

Attributing it to a lack of power explains why the kids who were "out there" had trouble making friends, no matter how kind and trustworthy they were.  It explains why a professor worried about getting replaced may not tout the credentials of their grad or post-grad protege quite as much as they should and I think it happens in management as well. 


I could even make the dubious claim that my strong mind, outspoken opinion, and rampant feminism meant that only a man who was either quite secure and/or utterly indifferent on the subject (possibly a side effect of the security and therefore lack of worry/concern) of his masculinity could fall in love with me.  Pathetic thing of me to say?  Perhaps.  But in the rare occasion of a guy having a crush on me, they all wanted to engage in some variant of taming me, toning me down, softening my rhetoric, proving their superiority over me, giving me an alternative "outlet" for my feminist energies (seriously dude, no).  Oh geez, there was this one guy (brassdollfin and silveriris, I think you know who I'm referring to) who constantly picked arguments with me just so he could try and prove me wrong and prove himself as my intellectual superior and somehow gain the upper hand- as if besting me would have led to me developing an attraction for him- personally, I thought he'd seen too many romantic comedies where the man and woman are rivals and she starts feeling a strange attraction to him as soon as bests her somehow or wins some witty little banter or whatever.  Also that after the first few months and months and months of it, the continued skepticism from people who refused to believe that Fred gave me lots of hugs for non-sexual reasons went from entertaining to aggravating to simply ludicrous.  And  please don't get me started on the people who expressed surprise that I would date someone who had a reputation for being "macho" because I was "like, into girl power and all that stuff" with the frequent implication that all my views were nothing but bitterness over being single.  Height, broad shoulders, a trench coat, and no record of saying a girl's attractive or he's got a crush on anyone, even a celebrity, seems insufficient to explain the image Fred had in high school, but there it was.  We still giggle about it.  Anywho.....

But making this argument specifically for women.... no.  I would much rather believe that all the stupid petty cattyness of middle and high school was a result on inbred, in-grown insecurities, deficiencies, obsessions over the media and cultural standards of beauty, attractiveness, popularity, acceptable behavior, etc, etc that women as a whole seem to suffer from more than any other large-scale demographic rather than some sort of unavoidable "girl thing."  Ruining your friend's relationships or trying to steal her man or compete for the same one is not a "girl thing"- it's an expression of underlying insecurity.  And yes, I will agree a lot of the reasons for this underlying insecurity is because of society's dictates on what a woman should be (attractive, popular, sexy, able to get a man whenever she wishes, the most successful of her friends, etc).  And I think that being vulnerable to these stereotypes and prejudices in turn results in more women fitting them- how long can anyone be bombarded with images and ads telling them to worry about all the trouble areas they didn't even know they had before they do start worrying about them?


Getting back to the issues raised in my textbook, I think a lot of criticism and backlash came from the rest of the society insisting of viewing any sort of extremism and anomaly as being the unanimous position of the whole.  This, in turn, is what spawned paranoia over what all the leaders and groups said or did or supported, for fear of how it would reflect on the whole instead of being taken as, oh, one opinion expressed by one person who's liked and respected for their other opinions.  A few splinter groups and one display of symbolic purification and the rejection of constraints mostly consisting of girdles, high heels, sexist texts, housewives manuals, etc, has turned into the massive, pervasive stereotype that feminists are all bra burning lesbians.  One display!  Nothing was ever on fire!  Somehow one "bad" friend makes the whole group look bad, tolerating daring and radical new positions implies agreement and support, etc, etc, etc.

And because I've been ranting, I'll leave you with one of my brand new sources on the presentation I'm doing Monday.  This would be an interview with Monsieur Dan Savage of the infamous Savage Love advice column, in a recent interview with Ms. magazine:

"I think one of the reasons straight guys are so violent and crazy is that sex is hard to find when you're a straight guy. It really is. Women are less willing to have chance, random encounters with men, because sex is riskier--physically and emotionally--for women. Letting someone into your body is always going to be more taxing than sticking it into someone's body. And so long as straight people regard sex as just vaginal intercourse, women are going to be less likely to engage in casual sex.

When two men consent to go to bed together, that's the beginning of the negotiations about what's going to happen. When a man and a woman consent to going to bed together, that's--in almost every case--the end of the negotiation. What's gonna happen is, he's gonna f*** her. Women know that, and so women are less likely to consent. My boyfriend and I don't f*** each other in the ass every time we have sex, my god! We wouldn't want to! So long as straight people have such an idiotic and narrow definition of sex, straight guys are gonna have a hard time finding it. And it's their own fault, to a great extent. Because they assume that sex means vaginal intercourse, and when they don't get it, they don't think it's sex, and they're mad. That's crazy."

Ah, controversy.  And yes, I censored the cuss words, although I would argue that his verb usage is the most appropriate use of the f-bomb possible (it's not an adjective, people!).  Since I don't cuss, it seems weird to just cut and paste someone else's swear words into my text, even if it is a quotation.  And also because I hope that one day my mom will start peeking at this when she wants to find out what I've been up to because I generally end up re-capping all my recent posts for her anyway and if she'd already read them then we could just start talking about and discussing what I've been up to and what I've been thinking instead.


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[info]yuri93
2008-03-08 05:24 am UTC (link)
IMSA's style of teaching and its experiments with temporary girls-only classrooms came up as well so that's yet another thing I'm absolutely itching to hear yuri93's thoughts on.

I skipped down to the bottom here, so keep in mind I didn't really read the rest of your post. :P

The experiments with sex-segregated classrooms (because it was more that than girls-only classrooms; that makes it sound like they were only teaching girls) ended shortly before I arrived there. It had turned into student apocrypha at that point, and once upon a time girls took SI (scientific investigations) separately from boys...

I think I've explained to you in general that IMSA sucks, in many, many ways. It all-but neglects its students, and delivered several disciplinary slaps on the wrist to me when I should have been expelled outright from the school. IMSA's administrators, psychologists, health officials, and RAs stood over me while I was destroying myself, via cutting, self-starvation, and an abusive relationship that's scared me off of heterosexual sex, and they did absolutely nothing for me, except for the meager actions that would keep their own jobs and avoid lawsuits.

It does not teach its students, either; it is loathe to provide instruction, and discourages students from seeking out help from professors. (I literally did not know I could do that until my last week there; up until that point every math professor I'd had had always shunted me off to "go to my table" if I asked him for help.)

I do not think, therefore, that IMSA is a good, healthy environment to conduct this study in. It's like trying to separate boys from girls in a swimming class to see if the girls will learn better, while half your pupils are drowning.

That said, I'm unclear on the outcome of the study. Apocryphal knowledge tells me that the girls learned better, but they switched back because...why? I don't know; it's a mystery! Help me out on this one.

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[info]hyuumanatees
2008-03-08 05:59 am UTC (link)
*Supposedly* they experimented with a more communal, group rather than individual, discussion and interactive rather than staid lecture format. And supposedly that once they took what they learned from the girls in the sex-segregated group and applied it to the rest of the student body, the student body as a whole started to do better as well. And they all lived happily ever after, The End, until the big bad state legislature thought that IMSA could still provide quality education and a nurturing environment after its ENTIRE budget was cut a full 30%.

Not that was ever the entire problem, of course. I think most of it (at least back then) came down to the fact that IMSA was a great school to try and get into if you were from a low income area with cruddy schools and no access to any sort of science or computer equipment, etc. In those situations it was quite easy to argue that IMSA gave kids from those areas a leg up.
But in a lot of areas, particularly writing skills and the like, IMSA just doesn't compete with the nicely funded schools and they're just not able to cope with students who aren't self-sufficient beyond some initial homesickness ("what? high intelligence doesn't always signal emotional maturity? hubbawha?").
I think IMSA was used as a testing ground for no other reason than the whole "math and science! if we can get girls to succeed at that, we'll KNOW we're right!" attitude.
Man am I cynical when I have papers to write. :D

And if I could see you now I would give you as many hugs and love as I did when you first told me about this stuff. *heart*

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[info]yuri93
2008-03-08 06:21 am UTC (link)
*Supposedly* they experimented with a more communal, group rather than individual, discussion and interactive rather than staid lecture format. And supposedly that once they took what they learned from the girls in the sex-segregated group and applied it to the rest of the student body

This is where I'm confused. That is what IMSA is. That is, to my knowledge, what IMSA has always been. It has always been communal (ie, students teaching each other), "investigative" learning.

(And--grumbly again--it is precisely at this altar of "discovery learning" that they're sacrificing their students' educations. I'm not convinced that students from low-income environments are doing better at IMSA than they would be at home. I'm also not convinced that IMSA takes much of its student base from low-income environments.)

My parents have encouraged me (they don't know the half of what all happened) to write a novel based on what happened to me at IMSA. I've considered it for NaNoWriMo, but I've got a dystopian SF thing planned that would probably be more fun and more coherent, and less likely to get me sued. :P

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[info]hyuumanatees
2008-03-08 07:06 am UTC (link)
Apparently the way they were doing things before meant that aggressive male students were deciding everything, making all the initiatives, etc, etc while girls and shyer students just kinda followed along and never did much. This new method supposedly got more students to speak up and prevented "natural leaders" from always being in charge.

I doubt that IMSA takes much of its student base from low-incomes as well; that would mean their test scores may not be as high. I just think that they're the group that has the greatest to benefit from something like IMSA. If your school doesn't have any labs and the computers are 15 years old, you're not going to learn much that's relevant. Inner-city schools? From a parent's perspective, it'd at least get them out of the reach of local gangs.

Sued? Hon, I think you would prompt a wide-scale investigation. Thinking back on it, though, I would recommend using names that are slightly altered or just initials.

Dystopian SF does sound cool. Mostly I'm hesitant to encourage you to wait because I know everytime I say that I'll wait until I've healed/recovered a little more before recording something, I find that I can't remember with as much clarity and vividness as I would need to truly describe what happened. I guess part of it is that trauma seems by definition not to be coherent must also our own attempts to go on living. Must our brains have a tendency to soften/minimize/erase/fuzz the details and specifics of most traumatic/tragic events in an evolutionary survival technique? Or is it just that purposely spending large amounts of time not thinking about it weakens all the little neuron synapses that store the memories because those areas get relegated as "not important" because they're not accessed often? Dangit self, stop connecting everything back to your final papers!

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[info]eldamorie
2008-03-09 06:41 am UTC (link)
I think that's interesting given the number of studies that show that traditional methods of pedagogy, as they stand now, are highly biased in favor of female students. I'm sure this is related to socio-cultural perception of gender roles, but I guess I see the situation as much more balanced than it appears.

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On the other hand...
(Anonymous)
2008-03-08 10:21 pm UTC (link)
OK, I can't resist seeing more than one side simultaneously - it's genetic. So first I want to say I totally agree that the media (and the power structures) want to dismiss equity issues and female-on-female attacks as girl stuff and therefore, by implication, not important or worth understanding better.

On the other hand, I don't think we can let ourselves and our sisters off the hook too lightly by pointing to cultural influences and societally-induced insecurity. There's a strong evolutionary component to virtually all adolescent behavior (and many adults are still acting out like teenagers). I'm remembering a great ape study showing that females compete in their own ways for access to high status males as well as for preferred treatment for their offspring. However, when a new male gains dominance, it is the older females (grandmothers and aunties) who protect the infants, when the new male is trying to eliminate his predecessor's babies so the younger females will be willing to mate. Behavior to win the approval of dominant males is therefore not too surprising, even among human females. If a woman is dependent on the men around her for support and approval, then she's unlikely to tolerate women who might lose her that support. Attacking such women is a way to reassure her men that she's not "one of those" who make them so uncomfortable. Grossly over simplifying? Of course - I don't have to write a paper on it! :-)

So back to practical applications - each of us has to bring human awareness to the impulses we share with our primate relatives. Many people are not willing or able to choose a different way for themselves, so yes, that does put the bigger burden on those who can and do. And the tendency of the press (and hence our society) to see one extreme person as speaking for the whole is hardly confined to women's issues! Consider how Muslims are currently portrayed...

Love,
Auntie N

P.S. Did you notice how this all relates back to your observation about the characteristics of the older heterosexual couples in your church who are able to welcome GLBT folks? They find no threat in others' various expressions because they themselves are more secure and confident in their own sexuality and relationships.

P.P.S. Now I'm REALLY curious as to how your sweetie was viewed in HS. I realize I was completely out of touch with you during those years, hence am so glad to share this channel now.

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